A good book to read regarding the narrative of the fall from eden is Erich Fromm’s ‘The Art of Loving’. He postulates an evolutionary corrolary that primitive man existed in a state of oneness with nature and everything and the more rationality and the ego developed – individuation – at the same time one is departing from that ‘oceanic feeling’ – which one seeks to revive communaly, in churches, stadiums, and also in fascistic cults incidentally. Another author on ‘the return to the garden’ narrative would be Allen Ginsberg a 1960s counterculture gay Jewish BEAT Generation poet whose works were censored by the U.S. Government for an extended time. He was seeking this reconnection while also rebelling as a revolutionary poet who later rose to be one of the major American literary figures. He had visions including a moment of timeless eternity while contemplating – I believe a Walt Whitman poem about the Sunflower. He’s amazing.
5:45 Ben says humans took away value from the universe by taking rules away from a ‘vase’ – as if this is comparable to God imparting value to an object. In your comparison, I am assuming the HUMAN who set rules about the VASE was not GOD so they started out constructed. The vase was not valuable other than material constructed into a vase – (other than in Aristotean philosophy that its matter was attatched to the FIRST CAUSE through all that Aristotle form stuff that is difficult) except that humans gave it a value and imparted that unto the child who was told not to touch it. So the question would be if the child broke the vase, are you claim the child sinned against God? Because I don’t see that following at all.
I believe many cultural arguments do stem from ‘telos’ as Ben stated – but the idea that God decides the meaning of the universe and man should retreat to some idealized dumb animalism without rationality as a solution is only an answer insofar as the ‘objective’ nature of the universe is unfinished and ultimately a thought in the mind of God. I believe religious people, especially evangelicals use this as a hope to leave this world at the detriment of THIS world. Which is why the right denies climate disaster and fails at helping the coming water crisis and land becoming nonarable. This was another church father’s purvue – AUGUSTINE.. who in response to Christians facing backlash while Rome fell for their ‘turn the other cheek’ philosophy being blamed for why a once strong people was decaying and being taken over by barbarians – Augustine famously in The City of God DIVIDED the Christian responsibilties – between the CITY of GOD, and CITY OF MAN. Without love of the world, Christianity is another death cult.
Two things hit upon here that I feel personally I want to talk about in response – you talk about science and the idea of objective scientific truth – and you range toward Christ as an avatar / ‘abstraction’ for ideal/GOOD. But then you head into the New Testament and a concept that is of much interest in Christ’s rejection of the status quo and his hated status from many religious and government figures BECAUSE he taught the golden rule as more important than ANY man made ‘law’. Knock Knock, Neo..
Around 5:00 I think Ben tries to argue that morality is the equivalent to rationality which is an extreme departure from any religious teaching that I have studied. I see most of this discussion as a roundabout argument that they are actually NOT having which is how does a human with LIMITED rationality, have any claim to KNOW what is GOOD, based on belief in God? I believe in God, but the idea that my idea of good is the same as God’s idea of good seems at base arrogant and at bottom blasphemous.